Deborah Oniah: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. Welcome, welcome, welcome.
Danielle McLaughlin: Hi. Hello.
Deborah Oniah: Hello, . Hi. Hello, .
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: Yes.
Sukhi Byrne: It's always a delight. Always a delight to spend time with you, Deborah. I always feel like I. Myself are more energized and you know, uplifted any interaction with you, ,
Danielle McLaughlin: it is always a joy to be chatting to you. Deborah.
Deborah Oniah: I am Deborah Oniah. I grew up in Nigeria.
I've lived in Ireland since 2017. I'm a mother of four. I am pro-choice. I'm a community organizer. The youth worker and the mental health heart for kids. After years of performing, I realised I had to find a way out for myself and my children, although I grew up with a culture and society that expects a woman to keep it together.[00:01:00]
To depict, that all is well on the outside and on the inside. I need this A-list performance will now take its curtain call. On my healing journey, I have made lifelong friends and today I speak with a few of them to end the stigma around mental health to break the shackle of shame of going to therapy.
Because sincerely, it's
okay not to be okay.
Joanna Dukkipati: Welcome to. It's Okay To Not Be Okay. A documentary by Good Day Cork with support from Career Training Internships. Content warning: this documentary contains discussions on loneliness, isolation, and trauma that may be harmful to some
listeners.
Deborah Oniah: What will you say will be the first time you had the [00:02:00] word mental health? When was that.
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: Eh, right. Good question Deb. So, , that is Busie, warm,
Deborah Oniah: insightful, and spoken and an inspiring
sanctuary runner.
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: You know, I used to, I used to think that mental health is about someone who's like mentally disturbed.
I never thought my own mental state is not even stable. When I came to Ireland during the first few months, my life was basically inside the room , so meaning I spent a lot of time on my phone, on YouTube and everything, and I, it happened that I saw myself like watching things related to mental health, but I never really cared [for] like the meaning of it.
I only saw, oh, there are people experiencing what I'm experiencing, what I have [00:03:00] experienced as well. And then, um, when I started my course in UCC international development, . That's when I started to hear this word, mental health. Mental health. I'm like, what is this? Even if I tried to read the meaning of it online, it didn't make any sense.
But yeah, now I can define it in my own way. I can say depression. I can say even if I don't have like the professional meaning of depression, but I have an idea of it, and when I have like an emotional breakdown, that's when I can say, oh, I'm not in a really stable mental health, you know?
Danielle McLaughlin: I think of myself as having good mental health when I'm able to, to function properly in my relationships with my family and my friends when I'm able to take an interest in my work, when I can actually do [00:04:00] my work.
And that's,
Deborah Oniah: That is Danielle. She's very funny and kind and gentle and creative, and she's also an award winning short story writer.
Danielle McLaughlin: When I'm able to notice that there's good things in the world, and when I'm able to look at something and say, oh, that's, that's a very pretty tree, or that's an interesting, you know, piece of scrap that somebody has thrown out that I'm actually noticing things.
And that's when I know that my mental health is kind of steady, I suppose, and I'm in a good place because I can actually notice that there, there are good things around. Um, when I'm in a bad place with my mental health, I'm not functioning so well in my relationships with people. Um, I find it quite hard to work.
I find it hard to see the point of working, and I notice that I'm ver I'm very slow when I'm in a bad place in my head to notice anything [00:05:00] beautiful or good and everything seems to be kind of dark. So it's about being able to function with my family and friends and do my job and to be able to notice that there are good things around me and there are good things happening, and there are good people and beautiful
people.
Sukhi Byrne: Sometimes different cultures have gone through a lot of trauma... ,
Deborah Oniah: that is Sukhi, a generous, kind woman, and a mother [Sukhi] is also a [mind] fitness coach and she's the founder of Dynamic Mind Growth.
Sukhi Byrne: Because of that process of trauma, it actually becomes difficult then to be able to know what good mental health is because so many people are suffering.
I know my particular culture is Punjabi culture, so the north of India. and um, when partition happened in the north of India, the Punjab was, went through horrific, um, [00:06:00] process and there was a lot of people completely traumatized by that process. Um, a lot of kind of refugees migration. And because of that mass trauma, it became very difficult for people to be able to identify what good mental health looks like and what it feels like and what it is, and how well it works in a community that I think
people can also then just not recognise they've not been around people who are in good mental health, they've got good mind fitness, that you can then start to acknowledge actually what I'm going through isn't where I should be. Um, and being able to speak up about it as well. Speak up because we are already going through a lot of other struggles can be really tricky.
And also I do think there's an element of still embarrassment and more shame and people don't want to acknowledge where they
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: are with it.
Deborah Oniah: I did my postgraduate diploma in trauma studies in 2019 and 2020, and I understood what my [00:07:00] symptoms were, like, not being able to breathe and, you know, hear voices in my head.
But like all of that, I knew what the symptoms were, but I didn't know what the names were. So the naming kind of changed for me when I understood mental health and depression and anxiety. And some people like, oh yeah, but it's, no, I didn't know. But once I knew the symptoms and the name. . It got really, really easier for me.
So how important is that? Just naming the situation to anyone?
Sukhi Byrne: I
suppose what it can do is give you clarity, because sometimes it feels as though, You are. It's like you dunno what you are, you're up against. So once you understand and you, you can say, okay, I can name this. This is anxiety. It gives you that sense of clarity and it just even empowers you to go, okay, because this symptom is coming up as this anxiety, these are the things I know that I can do to combat that anxiety.[00:08:00]
Deborah Oniah: We don't talk about it. So you just keep putting on the performance
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: and pretend to be happy and bubbly while I'm not,
Danielle McLaughlin: when we think we're one thing and we're trying to project another thing,
Deborah Oniah: I call it an
A list performance.
Danielle McLaughlin: Okay. I hadn't heard that term before, but it's a very good one.
Deborah Oniah: So my A list performance will be, you know, putting up a front.
You have to just keep going and putting up the face. Like everything is fine.
Sukhi Byrne: There's a lot of pressure to, to kind of do and perform in the everyday tasks. Um, raise your family, go to work, and. There are additional responsibilities and burdens that come with that when you're not familiar with the surroundings, with the new country, with what are the cultural norms that people then almost go into survival mode and won't accept what is really going on in their own circumstances, in their own world.
Danielle McLaughlin: Yeah. I suppose there is that [00:09:00] gap. Maybe there is lots of people between our, our private internal us, and the public person. And I think the bigger that gap is, the more mental strain there is on our, on ourselves. You know, when we, when we think we're one thing and we're trying to project another things, I think a lot of mental strain comes from that.
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: Here in Ireland.
I do have friends from running, of course, like for sure I do. And they always tell me, oh, Busie any time, if you feel like talking, don't be afraid. But I feel like I'm still closing off and I'm not open enough to people, and I'm always shy from being vulnerable. I'm always trying to deflect from vulnerability and pretend to be happy and bubbly.
While I'm not, I still struggle to be open about [00:10:00] my struggles, you know, because I still have that thing. Oh, no one is going to listen to me or I'm going to be asked questions that I wouldn't want to hear. Do you know, sometimes I'll be struggling with something and I feel like, oh my God, if I share this with people, it sounds like it's not normal.
People might think, oh, is she okay? She's not normal. And I, I feel so ashamed to talk about some of the things. Especially, for example, if you experience like sexual abuse, you become so ashamed to talk about it because it's a taboo. Especially in my culture, people don't necessarily talk about this and the fear of being judged, you know, when you try to share your story with people and then instead of listening, they attack you with questions.
Oh, [00:11:00] why didn't you do that? Why did that? Why didn't you say it when it happened? Why are you talking about it now? There is always why, why, why, why, why? But at that time, I'm expecting people to listen to me without judging me and do not interrupt. I just want you to listen and give me your full attention.
Attention is all what I need from you. And I grew up without. I had no one to hug me from my family members. I had no one to kiss me, and that's all I need. I'm longing for that. That's why if people who know me, I love hugging , I love hugging people. I can even hug a stranger. I wish I can do that to everyone I meet on the street.
Culture really played a huge role among the black people and even around my [00:12:00] friends, that it seems to be very shameful to be open about our mental struggles. We keep it within ourselves. I think it really affects the way I behave around people, because sometimes I find myself being annoyed, being around people.
I'm like, oh my God, this is, this is very noisy. I just want to be out of this place.
Sukhi Byrne: Trauma is very subjective for each and every person. It's going to be a completely different experience, and because of that, we need to make sure that we honor that particular person's experience. Pain that they may be experiencing from that trauma.
And the best way to do this is in a safe space to make sure people are given a space. And for me, that space is one of pure listening, actively listening to somebody. And [00:13:00] making sure that you are not judging or you're not critical, or you're not dismissing how they feel. Because with trauma being so subjective, you may have reacted very differently in those particular set of circumstances to how that person who's talking to you has reacted.
And to give them that safe space you've got to honor their reactions, their feelings, and what they're going through without judgment.
Deborah Oniah: There's so many ways I support myself. One of the ways would be really surrounding myself with positive people and people that are on the path of continuous learning. How do you take care of your, your mental health? What supports you?
Sukhi Byrne: What I've [00:14:00] found recently, which has been brilliant for me to do, is to be able to reflect throughout the day.
Just because sometimes we're in such a rush and we're such a hurry, everything is go, go, go, go, go. And just take your moments to pause and reflect. And think is what I'm doing, what I need to be doing? Have I just gone on autopilot for the day? But also, another really powerful thing to do is first thing in the morning is to give yourself a quiet time.
Now what I do is I do a little self hypnosis, which I absolutely love doing, where I just spend an extra five, 10 minutes in bed and I go through a self hypnotic kind of my own little scenario where I go into this space where I'm just very relaxed, very much in tune with myself. So I set myself up more positively for the day because things are gonna come at you in the day, and I feel like that's what really helps me balance myself, just being reflective and giving myself a good start to the day, and even at the end of the day as well, to be grateful and [00:15:00] appreciate all that's happened in that day.
Even the very small bits
that have happened.
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: Most of the time I really find my peace, peace of mind with running and through Sanctuary Runners. I have joined Togher AC, which is the local athletic club. I also have really supportive friends. and when we run together, we share our problems. Oh, today I'm not feeling well today.
I just don't feel like running, you know? But the bus from the club will be like, oh, come on, come on, come on, I'm gonna pick you up. We go for a run. We go for tea, coffee, and cakes. The
Deborah Oniah: first time I did the marathon, With the Sanctuary Runner. Mm-hmm. , I did relay I did the last lap, you know, the finishing bit.
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: Oh, the glorious one. .
Deborah Oniah: Oh yeah. And like I'd never run before. Yeah. In my life. It was a big deal for me.
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: [00:16:00] Yeah, I can agree with you on that Deb. Um, I felt the same. I also did the glorious one, the glorious leg . Oh my God. I couldn't believe I just finished. It was seven km. Was it? Yeah. Oh my god. You know, the buzz of people at the finish line.
Oh my, it was amazing. It was the most amazing thing in my. And also I try to follow the motivational pages and your page. Of course, . I always make sure to read everything you post. It makes a difference. It gives me hope, it reduces my anxiety, you know, when I feel like my day is dark today. I can see a light.
Danielle McLaughlin: I've noticed over the years that [00:17:00] if I write regularly, that that keeps me in a much better mental kind of head space. Yeah. So I try and. I try and always have a few things that I'm writing. I've noticed that if I don't write for a long time, I'll get very angsty and kinda anxious and bad tempered. So writing really helps
me.
I came to writing because I got very ill very suddenly. Back when I was about 40 and I had to stop work, and at that time I had my own small legal practice. Law had been my dream for years and years, and I'd worked really, really, really hard to become a lawyer, and suddenly it was gone. It was kind of like the rub was pulled out from under me because I had no job anymore.
I was really sick. I was at home all day. So [00:18:00] that was when I started writing.
The writing was a big help for me then, because I can remember thinking back then that between the first word and the last word of a story, was a world, a place where I was able to, to function and exist just as well as anybody else.
Like it seemed at that time that there were so many things I couldn't do. I could make a story and I could just go in there and I made the rules and I decided, but went down on that page. It can be very, Very freeing and calming to put things down on paper. So even if we're never going to show it to anybody to embrace the idea of writing down our thoughts or our ideas down on paper,
Deborah Oniah: you have the pen and you [00:19:00] have the paper and you can really call the shot.
That's really, really
powerful.
Positive self-talk also helped me too. You need to talk to yourself like your best friend, because if your best friend come to tell you what's going on with them, you'll be like their number one champion. So we need to be our own best friend and talk to ourselves like our best friend. So that really supports me.
There's also like choices around, you know, taking care of yourself, feeling good about yourself.. .
Sukhi Byrne: There are different types of therapies, different types of ways that we can make ourselves stronger and better. It's trial and error, it's experimenting with different ways and what suits your personality, what suits your own experiences, how best your body works.
Your mind works for me. I use hypnotherapy. I use emotional freedom, technique tapping, which I absolutely love. Uh, meditations, mindfulness. I do work with the brain as [00:20:00] well, and you've got, too much, your diet. You are eating very well, you're exercising very well. You're looking after your kind of nutrients that are going into your body.
It's a holistic approach. It's the whole of you. We can never look at ourselves from just one particular angle and expect miracles. We have to look at ourselves from head to toe and look at all the different ways we can support ourselves in. A way that would make us the best versions of ourselves.
Deborah Oniah: I, I agree a hundred percent.
It's like having a backpack, a backpack of care. And it's not just, just having mental health issues for you to be able to have that backpack, I think everybody should have the backpack.
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: I feel like there should be therapy for people when you leave direct provision. There are some habits that I was doing in direct provision that I'm still doing it here in my place. For example, noises. I hate, noises. I don't, I even listening to my tv, [00:21:00] I have to lower the volume so that I can hear everything going on around me, but I'm alone.
I feel like maybe the government should open a platform whereby people should seek therapy maybe with subsidized prices or even for free for disadvantaged communities. I think it's very important because people go through a lot and almost all of us, we need therapy.
Danielle McLaughlin: I do worry that we're not going far enough beyond talk into action because now there's loads and loads and loads of talking about mental health, but when people maybe step forward and say, okay, I'm going to talk about my mental health and I need help, where can I get help?
Where can I access medical services? They're finding it very, very difficult to get the help that they ask for. So I think Ireland has [00:22:00] changed in that there is much more open discussion around mental health, and that is obviously a very good thing. I think we need to concentrate on delivery of services and making sure that people who do come forward and talk and share their struggles are actually then provided with the medical services that they
need.
Deborah Oniah: Sukhi, I appreciate you, . I respect you. Every time I spend with you, even if it's five minutes, there's always something to learn. What are the three words you're going to leave with us today? Our listeners? Three
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: words. The three
Sukhi Byrne: words. Always keep
learning. , always keep learning.
Deborah Oniah: And it does not really has to be like formal education.
It's informal education, podcasts and books and groups meetings. Like [00:23:00] just put yourself in the space where you learn new things, positive new things that will grow you.
Danielle McLaughlin: I would also suggest making, um, A date with art for ourselves once a week, maybe walk around a gallery or you might decide, you know, if you are in a town where there's murals that you would take a particular evening that week and you would go around and you'd look at all the murals, or you might ask a friend to go do that with you, or you would, if you like, um, a particular type of art that you would go sit in the library for an hour and you would, you know, just spend that hour looking at
art books, but just that you would kind of schedule a date between yourself and art, um, once a week so that you're kind of consciously bringing art into your life. Cuz I think there, there can be a healing [00:24:00] element to art and can also, I suppose, expand our horizons and open us up to so many other possible solutions for things that might be affecting us or bothering.
And then just being open, I think to the community, there's so much of it that that doesn't cost money, but there is a community there that that helps I think. And you know, some days you might just want to go to something and you mightn't feel like talking to anyone and you're just sitting there and listening.
But someday you might very desperately want to talk to somebody. It can't be a comfort to recognise the faces and just, you know, to, to have someone that you know and you can speak to or even to say hello or, or exchange a few words with. So I kind of think to put, put ourselves in the way of community, I suppose.
I think maybe I'm saying that because I'm someone who's quite introverted, so my tendency is to you know, just keep myself in my [00:25:00] own room. But I've noticed, I've learned that that isn't necessarily good for me. So, uh, I put myself out there with other people who are writing as well. So what's
Deborah Oniah: the one thing you like to leave us with today,
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: Please....
If your friend, your family member, or anyone try to reach out to you with their story and having their vulnerability to you. Listen without interruption. Give them your full attention. That's all they need at that time. Do you know what? Even if it means sitting down next to me without saying anything, all I need is attention.
It's okay to seek attention. I always hear people saying, oh, she's an attention seeker. No, it's okay to be an attention seeker. We need people. We are human beings. We [00:26:00] need each other. And I wish to be this person who also can listen to people without interruption, without judgment, without anything. We are here on earth to live as human beings, take care of each other, mind ourselves, and minding other people.
So, yeah, I think that's all I can say for now. And I love you all .
Deborah Oniah: We love you too.
So Sukhi, before you leave us today, I'd like us to practice a breathing exercise that we can use, like we can just start with to take care of ourself. Would that be okay? Yeah, that's absolutely
Danielle McLaughlin: fine.
Sukhi Byrne: This is just one, as I talked about earlier, about reflecting in your day, and it's just something you can do just to pause in your [00:27:00] day.
So if you just close your eyes, take a deep breath in. Hold gently release
now. Again, just taking a deep breath,
gently release.
Now what I want you to do is to count backwards from 20 all the way down to zero. So in your mind now, just count from 20 to zero.
And then taking another deep breath
[00:28:00] hold gently release.
Another deep breath
hold
and
gently release.
Just open your eyes.
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: Just bring yourself back to the room.
Deborah Oniah: That was so good. I just felt like let's continue
Sibusisiwe Mhlophe: doing it..
Deborah Oniah: And it is a wrap. I am Deborah. Thank you for listening. Special thanks to all my guests. I want you to know that I see you, your voice matters. Put yourself in the space of continuous learning, and I truly hope you are okay. And if you are not, that's okay [00:29:00] too. Have a good rest of the
day.
Joanna Dukkipati: It's Okay To Not Be Okay
is brought to you by Good Day Cork, with support from Career Training Internships. Co-created by Joanna Dukkipati and Deborah Oniah, produced by Joanna Dukkipati. Edited by Daniel Clancy, music by Justin Grounds. If you like this documentary, please share it with everyone who will benefit from the conversations.
Do leave a review. It will help others to find it easily. We've included a list of resources and help lines in the description. If we have left any out, then please do let us know. Thank you.[00:30:00]